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Jineen's Thread -- Now it's about the feet
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Jineen Walker
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 Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2012 05:08 pm
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Can't thank you enough, Dr. Deb

One main, frustrating but important thought in my brain--how much did I screw up the x-ray, when the first rear one showed him leaning to the left, joints closed on the left, open on the right, so I had the vet take the one you marked up, after I had the horse weight the foot.

I did not pick up the left leg, I pushed his left shoulder over. I know the bone and joint shape wouldn't have been effected, and he hadn't moved his feet.
So it really isn't the parallel balance to the ground that you are talking about in toeing out though, it is rotation all the way from the shoulder that you can see in the x-ray? Is it the plumb line down the center, that is off to the left that what is revealing the rotation to you?


I sent your reply to the new farrier.
After she had trimmed this hoof, she looked at the leg, re-evaluated the break over, and did comment on the fact that he wanted to have his hoof turn out. However, your comment about orthopedics is strong, and I will follow that up with the horse hospital on Monday. If more x-rays are needed, that probably is the most viable way for me to go, other than your help.

What about work? He is still getting a 1/4 of bute 2x's a day, 24 hour turnout, and wears boots when I work him. The farrier says that is the best way to recover new hoof.
I will tell you that two days after his trim, was the first time I rode him that he was balanced on that right foot. No support or insistence from me, but limped on a tight turn to the right. His lameness is lessened to the point of no limp on a tight turn to the right, and also that he picked up a right canter lead last night with the lightest set up.
So, he is telling me that I am on the right track, but I really, really want to switch oceans-

Jineen


Jineen Walker
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 05:49 pm
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Sorry, Dr. Deb,

I read too quickly and not clearly enough, and understand I clearly it now, thank you.
Just too stressed, you gave him the death sentence and it threw me. I don't think he has that, but probably wasn't too far away. He is moving better and not limping, no heat or swelling that I can detect.

Pauline,

I've been wanting to tell you that Trey seems the same on the magnesium and salt supplements, and is doing fine, except when I let him eat grass.He gets quick, reactive, touchy, distracted and angry, so I won't be doing that again, till I can learn more.He will stay in a dry lot with hay.

I do have town water that is 7.4, so I have been making sure he has fresh water throughout the day. I have noticed his bug bite reactions seem to be calmed down, and I know the bugs haven't, so all is helping.

Tucker, my other horse, who also was x-rayed, due to sore glute muscles per your testing, and he became un-reactive to the testing after his feet were trimmed and started on magnesium flakes and sea salt two days later. That is a stretch for him, as his feet look as though he has foundered because he is walking on his soles.

I understand the flat foot to be caused by the way the farrier trimmed and why they all looked better after the farrier trimmed. He took back the toe to make the dishing look less steep, causing under-run heels and a flat foot. He kept lowering the hoof by removing the toe. He has worked this way on all four of my horses to some degree. I didn't ask him to, nor did I ask him to make Trey's foot look forwards. I have been asking him to address a dish on a clubbed foot, which is why I took x-rays- my professionals told me I was wrong.

What is astounding me about Tucker, is his behavior on the magnesium flakes and sea salt two days after starting them.
Both Tucker and Trey had been on a commercial brand of high dose magnesium, so I had tried it. But from a horse that for the last two years was kicking, screaming, and deep belly groaning in his stall, highly reactive and spooky, to one who was just waiting for attention--
Pain from his feet, pain in his back from holding his weight off his front feet, high/low blood sugar reactions-
The only thing I had changed in the last few months was farrier, mag and salt, and in two days he is himself. He is lame and in pain, but his old self.He had always been loud and demanding, but he became insane and one of the reasons to retire him. He is now off grass as well, and I will be reading safergrass.org before I turn them out again, if ever.

All that you are working on is very mind boggling and hard to comprehend as to the balance we need to achieve in our horses diets.
None of this isn't main stream, it is next to impossible to find help with it. I understand why people do give up.

Thank you for helping me.
Jineen

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 08:35 pm
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Yes, Jineen, your previous reply was so goofy that I didn't bother to reply. What about "the coffin bones and all the distal joints are unlevel" did you not understand? Do you not SEE the blue lines on the XRay?

You MUST get the coffin bone and coffin joint level -- so that when the horse stands on the foot they are at 90 degrees to the red line in the XRay -- before there will be any hope of the animal becoming sound. This is the 'death sentence', and I do want you to understand that there will be no remission, no backing-off, on this death sentence until you find somebody who can properly trim the feet. No magnesium, no sea salt, no dry lot, no controlled diet, no supplements will work to make him sound UNLESS you first get this part right.

Pauline's biochemistry research is just fabulous and much appreciated by me and everyone else here. But it must be combined in harmony with proper biomechanics.

As to yourself, Jineen, I think you have a tendency to react to what your veterinarian is telling you the same way you have reacted to what I have been telling you. In short -- you hear what you want to hear; you only hear part of what you are being told. Until you get THAT fixed, your troubles will likewise go on and on and on. You will remember that, upon the last occasion when I attempted to give you a riding lesson, you were unable to obey, and thus got out of the lesson only what YOU WANTED to get out of it. You therefore made no changes and no improvements, and in the process, you wasted my time and attention and the time and attention of all the other people who were riding or observing. When someone does what you do, Jineen, it is in fact very characteristic of mental illness or insanity.

I have on several previous occasions had no alternative but to dismiss students with similar problems. The reason for this, Jineen, is that it is useless and a waste of my time to try to work with insane people.

Outside my church, on the lawn of the church, on any given day of the week one may observe an insane man for whom (thanks to Ronald Reagan and the whole "party of No") there is no permanent bed in an institution, but instead he has no alternative but to walk the streets and sleep outside in the bushes around the church. You understand that the temperature here in the San Joaquin Valley has been over 100 degrees for the past two weeks, yet here we see the insane man at noon lying upon the grass, having wrapped himself over his clothing in black plastic and cardboard "armor" that is held on by duct tape. If any kind person from the church -- and I assure you there have been numerous attempts -- tries to get him to come inside where it is air conditioned, or tries to get him to go to a public shelter, or tries to get him to take off his "armor", he more or less vehemently refuses. If the cops come and pick him up and take him to the psych clinic, they hold him for three days but that's all they can do as he is not (so far) violent, even though he is plainly insane.

My point is, Jineen, that this man does not process reality in a normal way. Neither will he get any better until he is either permanently institutionalized, or else finds ongoing effective treatment from a doctor. Imagine if this man owned a horse and kept writing in here for help. That's how it feels to me, Jineen, when you write in: there is really no hope of effective change until Jineen changes. I want you to consider obtaining medical treatment, Jineen, not for your horse but for yourself. I have seen quite a few horse owners that I suspected had more than one fairly rattling fall, and the upshot is bleeding into the brain and the consequent loss of part of the person's ability to connect thoughts in a logical manner. It is for this specifically that I suggest you seek treatment.

Until you convey to me that you have done this, Jineen, I am going to forbid you to ask any further questions in this Forum, for there are other more capable people asking for my time. -- Dr. Deb

Jineen Walker
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 Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2012 12:15 pm
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Dr. Deb,

Leave personal comments and interpretations of my personality, religion, politics and stories out of any discussion with me.
You have knowledge that I come for, not your ability to teach. The answer is always clearer to the teacher. When the student can show it, then that demonstrates the teachers ability to teach.

I came to you with x-rays that showed a problem. Your interpretation of those x-rays were that the damage was started minimally two years ago.
That is the proof that you are asking me to provide that shows you, that I am trying to understand not only what you are teaching me, but why there is a discrepancy between what my professionals are telling me and what you are telling me. You insult me because of this discrepancy. You have the x-rays.

Veterinarians report dated 07/20/12

Quote-
" Consider continuing to roll toe, allow for more sole growth. Consider a trial of 3-4 weeks rest with Bute therapy. The next step in evaluation this lameness is to pin-point the location to more than just "ankle and below" on his RF. This would involve performing nerve blocks and potentially untrasounding to find a "lesion" or source of pain. Once a lesion is found we can tailor a rehabilitation plan specifically for that type of injury. As a rule it can take 6 months or more for soft tissue (tendon and ligament) injuries to heal. This rehabilitation involves strict stall rest and controlled ground work. Please call if you are interested in continuing to investigate this lameness. Consider adding joint supplement to his routine-oral supplement- Cosequin, Adequan, Legend. At the very least consider Cosequin ASU"
End quote.

The discrepancy between you and my professionals makes me look like I am hearing what I want to hear. You want to believe the professionals over me. That they are always right. They are not according to your interpretation of the x-rays. Then you get mad at me and insult me. Instead of telling me that I am not normal, that I am insane, why don't you realize that I have followed both yours and others suggestions here over many years and learned from them.

I told you I was taking my horse to the vet clinic to resolve this with an orthopedic specialist.

I won't be posting again on this matter. You helped me greatly in learning about conformation of this hoof and leg and I am grateful. I wouldn't have known if I hadn't studied, or seen Adam Till's markup a few years a go. You helped me see what others accepted wasn't always right. It is clear to me that I need to study more, and I can do that much more easily with books.
You certainly can refuse my posts, though I have been nothing but respectful and hard working student.

And by the way, I hosted you four years ago. You had me demonstrate walk to canter departs, attempted flying lead changes and led the class in drill team. You were upset with me when my horse cantered once when you asked for a trot. You were very angry at a woman with a pinto. You invited me to come out and attend class for a discounted fee if I would cook for you. You promised my husband olives-which he is still waiting for- I remember clearly.

I never commented that salt would cure my horses bone alignment problem.
Jineen
 

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2012 04:08 pm
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Yes, Jineen, this is exactly what I meant by noticing that the insane man on the church lawn reacts "more or less vehemently" against anyone who tells him the truth or tries to help him.

For those of you who are reading Jineen's reply but were not at the clinic she sponsored me to teach at, I'd like you to know that Jineen's recollections are absolutely correct. They are also absolutely partial -- this is what I meant when I said, "you hear [or remember] only what you want to hear [or remember]". Every situation between two human beings has two points of view, and this is what I remember: Jineen asked me whether she could SHOW how her horse could do flying changes. I said "sure", and Jineen's horse was able to do several of them in that light, trippy sort of way a lot of Arabs have of effecting a flying change by simply tilting the body from one side to the other. Yes, the animal's feet change, but flying changes done in this way are not correct and are not indicative of a correct or thorough physical preparation, nor are they especially beneficial to the horse.

And yes, I did permit Jineen to lead the quadrille or troop riding portion of one of the classes -- that is, when someone else was not leading it. I trade the leaders off, of course, in every class where we do this. But Jineen remembers best when she was the "star of the show".

And yes, I was quite irritated with the lady who brought the Paint horse, because the reason, it turned out, that she attended the clinic was that she viewed it as an opportunity to show all the tricks her horse had learned, in other words all the too-rapid and over-focused "ground work" -- such as is practiced by those schools of which we most disapprove. The lady "arranged" for a noontime demonstration intended to show off her skills without first consulting me to obtain permission. This is a trick used by marketers to give the impression that the clinician approves of or sponsors the demonstration. If she had asked -- as I think she very well knew, but you never know for sure when you are dealing with a screwball -- permission would most certainly have been denied, so, too late to stop the juggernaut, I sat down with her afterwards and gave her the choice of either becoming a true student, or else leaving the clinic immediately with money refunded for time not spent.

Both Jineen and this lady are alike in that what they want to do is show what they already THINK that they know; they want to go over those bars of the music that they can already play; they do not want to be told that they have never learned correct basics -- nor that there are many other pages of music that they need to practice -- and leave aside for this time, or perhaps forever, those parts of which they are so proud.

In Jineen's case this propensity to "hear only what she wants to hear" is also shown by the fact that her riding hat is continually atilt; and yet Jineen claims to have been with Sally Swift for years. Obviously Sally wasn't able to make much inroads, either. I am interested to note that the several other riders whom I know that I would also classify as 'goofy' also always have their hats atilt. Perhaps this relates to some effect -- some asymmetry in the use of the eyes perhaps -- that is consequent upon brain damage as a sequel to falling off fairly hard and repeatedly.

Jineen would like to make you folks believe that the reason I have told her to go get some medical help before returning here is that I am either angry or that I have a vengeful desire to insult her. But it is not so. Jineen will be lucky in this life if she finds any friend who is willing at any time to tell her straight. I told her straight at the clinic, and I am telling her straight now. Maybe NOW she will be able to begin to hear. So go get yourself some help, Jineen, and when you are with the doctor or the psych counselor, look into the matter of your own "armor", which is at the present time just as unassailable as the "armor" of the insane man on the church lawn.  -- Dr. Deb

Obie
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24th, 2013 03:58 am
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Hi Dr. Deb,
I have a few questions regarding this disease of the teeth (EOTRH). My vet had suspicion of EOTRH of my 17 yr. old Arab gelding back in Feb. 2012. My horse has not had his teeth checked by her or any other vet since then. But I recently e-mailed her and told her my horse has been quidding his hay and his gums are very swollen, and he is very uncomfortable. She pretty much at that time advised me that he has EOTRH. Since the time she took the radiographs back in 2012, I have noticed quite a change in his gums. I have been comparing photos of other horses on line that have this diagnosis, and I now see my horse's teeth/gums look the same, if not worse. The vet told me that Obie has not only his incisors involved but also his pre-molars (06) teeth. She said his pre-molars are loose and her comments were as such "I usually make the decision to extract teeth with this condition based on looseness, lack of response to conservative measures , which I did by removing those pre-molars from contact- but they are undoubtedly back in contact by now and presence of draining tracts". I am confused about why she would want to put a space between his pre-molars because after reading what you have said about the molars , they should be in proper contact for mastication and food grinding. Can molars that are not in contact create cementum? Has there been any mention of this disease being caused by over long incisors?
I am a little concerned about the prognosis of a horse that has to have incisors and molar teeth extracted. I have attached some photos of my horses teeth from June of this year. I do not see as much cementum on my horse's teeth as on the previous horse pictured. The vet never told me if he had cementum on his pre-molars.
Thank you for any help.
Linda-

Attachment: Obie 1.jpg (Downloaded 320 times)

Obie
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24th, 2013 04:02 am
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Another picture of Obie's teeth

Attachment: Obie 2.JPG (Downloaded 321 times)

Obie
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24th, 2013 04:04 am
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One more picture of Obie's teeth

Attachment: Obie 3.jpg (Downloaded 318 times)

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Sep 24th, 2013 06:31 pm
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Obie, I don't have the faintest idea of what 'EOTRH' is or what the acronym stands for. I don't think or speak in acronyms; I think and speak in English. Please be courteous enough not to talk jargon in this Forum, or when asking for help or advice.

It is obvious that your horse has swollen gums. What the appropriate treatment for this is will depend upon what the cause of it is. The first question to ask is 'does the horse have a fever'. The second question is 'what does his breath smell like'.

As to some of the other points in your query -- like almost every other horse owner, you are muddled as to the nature of horses' teeth; this is partly your vet's fault, for not having explained more about it to you. For example, it is quite normal for a 17 year old horse's cheek teeth (any of them: three premolars and three molars in each quarter of the head) to be loose. Between around 17 to 20 years old, the reserve crowns of most horses' teeth are all used up. The teeth are then very short and 'seat' rather shallowly in the sockets. If the rocking of the tooth with each chewing stroke does not stimulate the ligaments that hold the lower edge of the crown into the socket to lay down cementum and thereby 'weld' the tooth into the socket, then at some point the tooth will become so loose that the horse will spit it. I think this is what you are trying to express with your concern about cementum.

Note that Arabians and any horse (TB's and miniatures, for example) that have skulls built with negative cranial flexion, i.e. some kind of 'dish', are liable to have more intra-oral chewing pressure, shorter reserve crowns, and earlier senescence of the teeth than horses such as Lipizzans and Mustangs whose skulls have positive cranial flexion, i.e. 'arched' heads.

But as to the gum disease -- we need to know from you or your vet whether this is due to a systemic infection (i.e. why I asked if he's running a chronic low fever), whether the old boy has congestive heart failure and thereby a generalize tendency for edema (physical exam should determine this), immune system problems that involve slowing or blockage of lymphatic drainage, one or more local abscesses in the mouth, or suspicion on the vet's part that the animal is regularly getting into something that directly irritates the oral tissues. It is furthermore obvious from the photos that your animal is a pretty good cribber or rail-rubber and we need to hear the vet's opinion as to how much this may be a contributing factor. And there are still other possibilities -- impossible for me to say based on the pictures you show and the information you present, but perhaps this answer will allow you to go back to your vet and have some more dialogue with her, so that it's clear to you what the cause is, what the proposed treatments consist of, and what the prognosis is. -- Dr. Deb

 

Obie
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 Posted: Thu Sep 26th, 2013 03:02 am
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Hello Dr. Deb and all,

Ok, about the acronym thing.
Thank you for your insight and guiding me in the right direction. It so happens that last night after rubbing my horses face and under his jowls, I noticed a scab about 1/2 inch in diameter. I scraped it off and noticed white skin, like something had drained from it. It appears to be an older scar. I'm thinking this might have some significance. The right side of his cheek appears to be more swollen than the left. He does not have a temp and his breath is not fowl. He does have some froth when I lift his lips to look at his gums.
As to the cribbing; I have never seen him cribbing anything. I have seen him chewing a few things, but nothing significant. I have made an appointment with my local vet to check for all the things you have mentioned.
I really appreciate your input, and will continue to do more research on equine teeth.
When I get more info I will provide an up-date from my vet.

thank you,
Linda

Obie
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 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 05:45 am
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I have a few things to report.
I had a full panel blood analysis done on my horse. No findings of any edema or heart issues. Blood work did not reveal anything abnormal. They did find in his urine, some calcium crystals. The vet said it was normal and not of concern. but I am concerned, because I just lost my other arab, my little grey comet gelding about five weeks ago. He had a calcium carbonate stone that lodged in his uretha. I lost him very quickly. At this point I took my other horse off of our property as I felt I needed more tests on our well water. I had a mineral CA/MG ratio test done, and it revealed 2 1/2 times more Ca than Mg. It is hard water high in iron and normal PH. Also has arsenic at what they say is acceptable levels per code.
I don't want to sound too winded here, but my other concern for this horse, which is why I wrote in this thread; is my horses incisors and gums. My horse has recently been making the swishing airy sounds with his incisors and also a knocking on wood type sound on his right TMJ when chewing. I have had two DVM/Dentist's look at him. The one found ramps/hooks/waves and sharp points cutting his inner mouth and also stage 2 periodontal disease. I asked him about the occlusal balance of his incisors and cheek teeth for proper mastication and grinding of his food, as my horse has been lolly gagging with his tongue and spitting out half chewed hay. His comment was..his incisors are too short. The other dentist did not feel his incisors needed to be addressed. Now I am at a loss here. I told them both my concern of repeatedly floating down the cheek teeth of a 17 yr old horse, who has very little reserve crown left to begin with, and not wanting to address the incisors. Of the three vets that have looked at my horse, they all feel that he has this resorption issue going on with his incisors (refer to the beginning of this thread). They have mixed opinions as to whether he needs his his incisors pulled now, one does not think so the other now does not know. I know my horse is in pain, he is losing weight, I cannot touch his mouth with out a fuss. Also I explained to them of the drainage I found under the right side of his jowl, this past summer. I left with the recommendation of a bacterial rinse for his mouth and some bute. I guess until he is in so much more pain that then there will be no question that his incisors will need pulled.I would like to find some one who is interested in addressing the incisors. Dr. Deb, do you know/have any recommendations up here in the Portland Oregon area. Any other thoughts or direction would be helpful.

Thank you,
Linda

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 07:15 am
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Linda: you will NEVER permit anybody to extract your horse's incisors. They need to be reduced, not extracted.

Further, you will be VERY cautious about permitting the extraction of any cheek tooth -- molar or premolar -- that is still viable. The only teeth that should be extracted are those that are clearly diseased and abscessing, or else relatively healthy teeth that are so geriatric, having so little reserve crown, that they are loose in the socket (and the horse would have soon spit those teeth out on his own, so all you're doing here is helping him not have to deal with a loose or rocker-y tooth).

If you permit multiple extractions of viable cheek teeth, the likelihood is that your horse will die within weeks. The reason for this is that the animal must be given time to learn how to quid, which your horse has already started to learn, i.e. quidding means spitting out stems he has sucked on but not thoroughly chewed nor swallowed.

You are correct in your concern about floating a horse's cheek teeth down without addressing the incisors.

This is a current "issue" among DVM-dentists; what they're afraid of is that if they cut off excess incisor length, which is what "reducing" the incisors means, that they will inevitably and necessarily cut into the live pulp cavity of the incisors.

This is an absolutely false concern -- there is no danger whatsoever of this happening on any horse after the age of about six, because the pulp cavity retracts and secondary dentine is laid down at the crown of the pulp-tube -- more and more with each successive year. If your vet feels uncomfortable with performing an incisor reduction, he or she can prove this to themselves simply by taking an X-ray of the incisors, which will conclusively demonstrate the position of the top of the pulp cavity and which will also allow them to know exactly how much incisor length needs to be removed -- likely an eighth of an inch or more LESS than the space available. In other words, there will be plenty of room for the practitioner to work without any danger of hurting the horse or killing any incisor tooth.

The "education" that many of our DVM-dentists have received over the last decade tells them not to reduce incisors, and many of them are not trained to perform incisor reduction. The reason that the DVM-dentists have been mis-educated on this point is entirely a matter of politics, and rather ugly politics at that: it's a territory fight vs. the layman-dentists, who about thirty years ago revived the 19th-century technique of incisor reduction and began practicing it, which to the DVM's means that laymen are practicing a form of surgery, and hence are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

Unfortunately the layman-densits have often done things that are both unethical and illegal, i.e. they obtain chemical restraint drugs from pushers -- some of whom are DVM's -- which enables them to practice entirely independently. Since the layman-dentists have absolutely zero training in pharmacology, and also do not pack antidote chemicals with them, they step into territory by doing this that I can't condone.

What I am telling you here is something I've mentioned in this Forum many other times: the DVM's have been ungentlemanly and unwilling to compromise with, or learn from, or admit a debt to, the layman-dentists -- to the great detriment and disservice of your horse and all horses. At the same time, the layman-dentists, who actually have the more correct understanding of equine oral biomechanics and who are often more skillful in the use of the dental instruments, have lied and slyly cheated on agreements made with the boards of veterinary practice in various states. So what I am telling you is this, bottom line: I am waiting for grownups to show up at both sides of this table.

Meanwhile, as a result of the current ugly fight, there is absolutely nothing I can offer you or your horse. You will have to keep searching for either a layman-dentist -- the best work "quietly" in some kind of symbiosis or cooperation with a sympathetic DVM, and they do not advertise; or else find a DVM-dental practitioner who understands the need for incisor reduction, and knows what the "swish-swish" sound of incisor rubbing on incisor means. For, to repeat, it is entirely possible to kill a horse by floating the cheek teeth out of occlusion when the accumulated excess length of the incisors is acting to pry the jaws apart and prevent the cheek teeth from properly seating against each other with each chewing stroke. 

You might, as a last effort, want to show a printout of this transmission to the DVM's you are currently working with -- you'll show it to them, and then consider what they have to say about it. The overall situation is a tragedy. -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 07:15 am
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Linda: you will NEVER permit anybody to extract your horse's incisors. They need to be reduced, not extracted.

Further, you will be VERY cautious about permitting the extraction of any cheek tooth -- molar or premolar -- that is still viable. The only teeth that should be extracted are those that are clearly diseased and abscessing, or else relatively healthy teeth that are so geriatric, having so little reserve crown, that they are loose in the socket (and the horse would have soon spit those teeth out on his own, so all you're doing here is helping him not have to deal with a loose or rocker-y tooth).

If you permit multiple extractions of viable cheek teeth, the likelihood is that your horse will die within weeks. The reason for this is that the animal must be given time to learn how to quid, which your horse has already started to learn, i.e. quidding means spitting out stems he has sucked on but not thoroughly chewed nor swallowed.

You are correct in your concern about floating a horse's cheek teeth down without addressing the incisors.

This is a current "issue" among DVM-dentists; what they're afraid of is that if they cut off excess incisor length, which is what "reducing" the incisors means, that they will inevitably and necessarily cut into the live pulp cavity of the incisors.

This is an absolutely false concern -- there is no danger whatsoever of this happening on any horse after the age of about six, because the pulp cavity retracts and secondary dentine is laid down at the crown of the pulp-tube -- more and more with each successive year. If your vet feels uncomfortable with performing an incisor reduction, he or she can prove this to themselves simply by taking an X-ray of the incisors, which will conclusively demonstrate the position of the top of the pulp cavity and which will also allow them to know exactly how much incisor length needs to be removed -- likely an eighth of an inch or more LESS than the space available. In other words, there will be plenty of room for the practitioner to work without any danger of hurting the horse or killing any incisor tooth.

The "education" that many of our DVM-dentists have received over the last decade tells them not to reduce incisors, and many of them are not trained to perform incisor reduction. The reason that the DVM-dentists have been mis-educated on this point is entirely a matter of politics, and rather ugly politics at that: it's a territory fight vs. the layman-dentists, who about thirty years ago revived the 19th-century technique of incisor reduction and began practicing it, which to the DVM's means that laymen are practicing a form of surgery, and hence are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

Unfortunately the layman-densits have often done things that are both unethical and illegal, i.e. they obtain chemical restraint drugs from pushers -- some of whom are DVM's -- which enables them to practice entirely independently. Since the layman-dentists have absolutely zero training in pharmacology, and also do not pack antidote chemicals with them, they step into territory by doing this that I can't condone.

What I am telling you here is something I've mentioned in this Forum many other times: the DVM's have been ungentlemanly and unwilling to compromise with, or learn from, or admit a debt to, the layman-dentists -- to the great detriment and disservice of your horse and all horses. At the same time, the layman-dentists, who actually have the more correct understanding of equine oral biomechanics and who are often more skillful in the use of the dental instruments, have lied and slyly cheated on agreements made with the boards of veterinary practice in various states. So what I am telling you is this, bottom line: I am waiting for grownups to show up at both sides of this table.

Meanwhile, as a result of the current ugly fight, there is absolutely nothing I can offer you or your horse. You will have to keep searching for either a layman-dentist -- the best work "quietly" in some kind of symbiosis or cooperation with a sympathetic DVM, and they do not advertise; or else find a DVM-dental practitioner who understands the need for incisor reduction, and knows what the "swish-swish" sound of incisor rubbing on incisor means. For, to repeat, it is entirely possible to kill a horse by floating the cheek teeth out of occlusion when the accumulated excess length of the incisors is acting to pry the jaws apart and prevent the cheek teeth from properly seating against each other with each chewing stroke. 

You might, as a last effort, want to show a printout of this transmission to the DVM's you are currently working with -- you'll show it to them, and then consider what they have to say about it. The overall situation is a tragedy. -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 07:15 am
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Linda: you will NEVER permit anybody to extract your horse's incisors. They need to be reduced, not extracted.

Further, you will be VERY cautious about permitting the extraction of any cheek tooth -- molar or premolar -- that is still viable. The only teeth that should be extracted are those that are clearly diseased and abscessing, or else relatively healthy teeth that are so geriatric, having so little reserve crown, that they are loose in the socket (and the horse would have soon spit those teeth out on his own, so all you're doing here is helping him not have to deal with a loose or rocker-y tooth).

If you permit multiple extractions of viable cheek teeth, the likelihood is that your horse will die within weeks. The reason for this is that the animal must be given time to learn how to quid, which your horse has already started to learn, i.e. quidding means spitting out stems he has sucked on but not thoroughly chewed nor swallowed.

You are correct in your concern about floating a horse's cheek teeth down without addressing the incisors.

This is a current "issue" among DVM-dentists; what they're afraid of is that if they cut off excess incisor length, which is what "reducing" the incisors means, that they will inevitably and necessarily cut into the live pulp cavity of the incisors.

This is an absolutely false concern -- there is no danger whatsoever of this happening on any horse after the age of about six, because the pulp cavity retracts and secondary dentine is laid down at the crown of the pulp-tube -- more and more with each successive year. If your vet feels uncomfortable with performing an incisor reduction, he or she can prove this to themselves simply by taking an X-ray of the incisors, which will conclusively demonstrate the position of the top of the pulp cavity and which will also allow them to know exactly how much incisor length needs to be removed -- likely an eighth of an inch or more LESS than the space available. In other words, there will be plenty of room for the practitioner to work without any danger of hurting the horse or killing any incisor tooth.

The "education" that many of our DVM-dentists have received over the last decade tells them not to reduce incisors, and many of them are not trained to perform incisor reduction. The reason that the DVM-dentists have been mis-educated on this point is entirely a matter of politics, and rather ugly politics at that: it's a territory fight vs. the layman-dentists, who about thirty years ago revived the 19th-century technique of incisor reduction and began practicing it, which to the DVM's means that laymen are practicing a form of surgery, and hence are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

Unfortunately the layman-densits have often done things that are both unethical and illegal, i.e. they obtain chemical restraint drugs from pushers -- some of whom are DVM's -- which enables them to practice entirely independently. Since the layman-dentists have absolutely zero training in pharmacology, and also do not pack antidote chemicals with them, they step into territory by doing this that I can't condone.

What I am telling you here is something I've mentioned in this Forum many other times: the DVM's have been ungentlemanly and unwilling to compromise with, or learn from, or admit a debt to, the layman-dentists -- to the great detriment and disservice of your horse and all horses. At the same time, the layman-dentists, who actually have the more correct understanding of equine oral biomechanics and who are often more skillful in the use of the dental instruments, have lied and slyly cheated on agreements made with the boards of veterinary practice in various states. So what I am telling you is this, bottom line: I am waiting for grownups to show up at both sides of this table.

Meanwhile, as a result of the current ugly fight, there is absolutely nothing I can offer you or your horse. You will have to keep searching for either a layman-dentist -- the best work "quietly" in some kind of symbiosis or cooperation with a sympathetic DVM, and they do not advertise; or else find a DVM-dental practitioner who understands the need for incisor reduction, and knows what the "swish-swish" sound of incisor rubbing on incisor means. For, to repeat, it is entirely possible to kill a horse by floating the cheek teeth out of occlusion when the accumulated excess length of the incisors is acting to pry the jaws apart and prevent the cheek teeth from properly seating against each other with each chewing stroke. 

You might, as a last effort, want to show a printout of this transmission to the DVM's you are currently working with -- you'll show it to them, and then consider what they have to say about it. The overall situation is a tragedy. -- Dr. Deb

DarlingLil
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 25th, 2012
Location: Michigan USA
Posts: 64
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 05:12 pm
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I noticed a great improvement in my own teeth after starting Magnesium myself. I no longer have to use sensitive toothpaste and my teeth feel stronger no more periodic looseness. Is Obie getting magnesium?


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